What follows is an edited transcript of this conversation, published alongside a short audiovisual summary that was released earlier.
Transcript by Norma Fötsch and Marjolein Hordijk
Video and questions by Ivana Smudja
1. What can we see on the table here, and what makes these books special or controversial?
Norma Fötsch (NF): My colleagues regularly organise exhibitions to raise awareness about specific issues. The table next to us is an example of this; it focuses on banned books and shows textbooks on banned books and examples of banned books.
Throughout history, books have been banned or access to them has been restricted. The reasons for these can vary greatly and include political, religious or social reasons, or the fact that they contain sexual content. The list of controversial books is incredibly long.
2. Could you show us an example of a banned book? Why is this book banned?
Marjolein Hordijk (MH): Banned books? I could bring my whole
bookcase. The Hate U Give
is one of the most frequently banned
books in American school libraries, and one of my favourite books. The
reasons given include concerns about coarse language, drug use, and
sexual scenes and references. It is also claimed that the book is
anti-police and promotes a particular social agenda.
The book is about a girl, Starr, who grows up in the hood
but
attends a white school outside the neighbourhood because her parents
think it’s better for her. As a result, she feels out of place in both
groups. Until the moment comes when her best friend is killed by a white
police officer who thought the boy was pulling out a weapon. It was
actually a hairbrush. A Black Lives Matter movement against the police
emerges. As the key witness, Starr eventually decides to speak out and
she becomes the figurehead of these demonstrations.
So you could argue that all the issues mentioned earlier, such as coarse language and sexual scenes, are being used as grounds for removing a book from a school library. But it certainly raises eyebrows. After all, isn’t it far more likely that people simply don’t want books that empower black communities? Because this doesn’t fit with the conservative white American narrative?
3. What does it mean when a book is ‘banned’? Does it refer to a legal prohibition, or to the removal of books from libraries, for example?
NF: When a book is banned, it is worth checking precisely what is prohibited. Is printing or distribution prohibited, or is access to the book restricted? For example, if the ban concerns printing the book, it may be that someone else holds the copyright, meaning you are not permitted to do so. If the issue is more about the content, however, it could be considered censorship. Censorship involves government supervision of spoken and written expressions that it deems objectionable. Measures can range from the removal of publications and blocking access to the internet to intimidation and arrests.
In the Netherlands, you do not need prior permission to publish anything. There is also no such thing as an index of banned books. However, the distribution of texts can be prohibited by the courts after publication, and authors can be prosecuted for inflammatory texts, for example.
In the United States, ongoing book bans often involve the removal of books from school libraries. Access to these books is restricted. These restrictions are often initiated by non-governmental organisations, such as Moms for Liberty. Therefore, book bans are not just government-imposed, but community-led too.
4. What is your opinion on how we should deal with difficult or controversial books? Should they always be made available?
NF: When it comes to dealing with controversial books, conflicting interests come into play. Let me introduce you to two examples.
The first concerns the right to free speech versus
anti-discrimination law. Freedom of speech is an important right that
should be respected. But should we accept that anyone can publish or
republish books in which a Nazi spreads hateful thoughts and calls for
the killing of anyone who does not conform to the norm? No, we should
not accept it, and you probably know the book I’m talking about: Mein
Kampf
by Adolf Hitler.
Another example of conflicting interests is the need for access to the original text versus adapting it to modern language. Some children’s books use the n-word. Should we destroy the original books and only make the adapted versions available? This is a real example. In Denmark, for instance, there was a significant debate surrounding the adaptation of Halfdan Rasmussen’s children’s poems. Ultimately, eight of his poems were not republished due to their racist content, but the original book containing all the poems is still available.
These examples demonstrate that the issue of banning books is complex. But don’t get me wrong, governments and communities would be wise to avoid banning books. A true democracy can tolerate different perspectives.
There are plenty of other ways to deal with questionable publications. As a publisher, for instance, you could publish an annotated edition of a controversial book. As a library, you could offer textbooks alongside the original book to explain why it is harmful or discriminatory. As a reader, you could choose to read books that highlight different perspectives.
5. Are there any banned books or books with restricted access in this library? How do you make that decision?
NF: The Radboud University Library’s core task is to provide essential books and materials for study and research. This distinguishes it from a public library, which serves a broader public purpose. Furthermore, our aim is not to preserve every book, since we do not fulfil an archival function. Our current collection has been carefully developed in close consultation with the faculties. Every new acquisition is subject to careful assessment to determine its potential contribution to study and/or research. The criteria used for this assessment may vary from publication to publication and from faculty to faculty.
6. What is the current climate in the US and Europe with regard to sensitive or controversial titles?
MH: We must not assume that book bans only happen in other countries. Here in Europe, too, we are seeing a strong shift towards right-wing conservatism. Here, too, there are books that are under attack. These are, in particular, books relating to gender and sexuality. When populism is on the rise, there is no need for critical thinkers. Books give people a broader perspective and encourage them to think for themselves.
7. In the United States, an increasing number of books are being removed from school libraries. Is this indeed the case, and what kind of books are we talking about?
NF: Unfortunately, I can be brief about this. This picture
is accurate. In the US, books are being removed from school libraries.
Since 2021, PEN America has been monitoring which books are being
removed. PEN America is an organisation dedicated to literature and
human rights. According to their records, almost 10,000 titles are no
longer permitted in school libraries. Notably, the majority of these
books are about people of colour, such as The Hate U Give
, which
Marjolein mentioned, as well as books about queer and political
issues.
An example of a queer book is: Gender Queer: A Memoir
. It was
written and illustrated by Maia Kobabe. The protagonist discovers what
it means to be nonbinary and that they are romantically attracted to
others, but not sexually attracted to anyone. Despite this, the book has
been banned for its sexual content. The book Fun Home: A Family
Tragicomic
by the great Alison Bechdel has also been banned for its
sexual content. The book is about the author’s coming of age as a
lesbian and deals with gender roles and dysfunctional family life, among
other things. One final example I would like to share with you is
Maus
, a graphic novel by Art Spiegelman. It recounts the
experiences of a Polish Jew who survived the Holocaust. It took me a
while to find out why this book was banned. It turned out that the
depiction of naked mice representing Jews in a concentration camp was
the reason for the ban.
Books are often banned on the grounds of sexual content. However, this argument is applied very selectively in the US. It is primarily employed to prohibit books that address unwelcome topics, such as racism, gay and lesbian sexuality, and critical historical reflections.
8. Are any books banned in the Netherlands? If so, which ones and why? And if not so, have there ever been plans to ban certain titles?
MH: At present times, no books are banned. Mein Kampf
was banned for a very long time, but that was partly because the book
could be kept off the shelves due to copyright. When the copyright
expired, there was a debate about what to do with the book because of
its hateful content. Ultimately, an annotated edition was published. I
think it is important to continue having these kinds of discussions.
In the Netherlands, it is enshrined in law that libraries are autonomous in choosing the composition of their collections. The government cannot intervene in this. However, social or religious pressure can influence this. For instance, there are many schools with a religious basis that refuse to include books, often gender-related, in their collections. Libraries and schools are constantly discussing this issue. They are seeking a balance between their own ideals and the reading enjoyment of many children.
Although in practice, titles can only be banned if they are extremely hateful and discriminatory, it is very rare for a book to actually be banned. However, retailers such as BOL.com and NBD Biblion, a library supplier, do make a selection. They do not actively offer those books.
9. What are the implications of certain books being banned from schools and universities? What consequences may this have?
MH: Put very simply, you can’t be something you don’t know
about. If you’re a young boy and you feel that you’re more attracted to
other boys, but you’ve never heard of being gay
, then you can’t
be gay. Because you don’t know what it is.
Banning books creates a very one-sided view of the world. But that doesn’t mean all these other feelings don’t exist. It leads to one-sided representation and unhappy children who don’t fit the mould. That’s a lot of children. Anyone and everyone who doesn’t fit the heteronormative white mould won’t recognise themselves. It’s precisely those books that provide mirrors and windows. In a mirror, you can recognise yourself, and a window gives you a different view of the world.
When you talk about banning books by critical thinkers or influential writers, you are erasing parts of history. You are erasing people’s identities. As far as I’m concerned, it’s the first step towards dehumanisation.
10. Why is it so important for a democratic society to have free access to books and knowledge?
NF: For a democratic society to thrive, people must understand political decisions, question them critically, and take action themselves. Books, journals and other academic and non-academic publications provide background information and offer different perspectives. Without this information, we cannot assess current events critically, nor can we take action.
Nearly 4,000 unique titles are on last year’s list of banned books. Most of the affected titles involve publications on LGBTQIA+ topics, race, and politics. The aim is to prevent young people from reading these books. The aim is to make these books invisible. However, it’s not just about making these books invisible; it’s also about making queer people, people of colour, and left-wing individuals invisible.
On a personal level, I believe that free access to books is a necessity, not a luxury. It is a prerequisite for a society in which diversity and equal treatment are valued. For instance, removing queer books from school libraries excludes people and renders queer individuals invisible. As a child in the 1980s, I would have loved to read books about two girls falling in love, for example. However, I couldn’t find any. Consequently, as an adult, I have struggled to find the right words. Fortunately, these books now exist, and I am happy for young people, hoping that these books will remain available to them.
11. What is your view on the future? Do you think that more books will disappear, or that banned titles will be reinstated?
MH: We haven’t hit rock bottom yet. In the Netherlands,
we’re seeing coordinated campaigns gaining traction, such as the Week
van de Lentekriebels
project for primary schools, which introduces
pupils to sex and relationship education, and campaigns targeting
certain authors. They’re having the desired effect. People are
complaining to their children’s schools and speaking out on social
media. There are political parties currently sitting in the House of
Representatives whose manifestos call for the desexualisation of school
textbooks. Many authors have now started to self-censor out of fear.
Publishers are also asking their authors to delete passages. We live in
a time when a children’s book author received so many death threats that
he had to be put under security protection and leave his home. This is
already happening, and although I hope we will get past this very soon,
I fear it will take some time and is likely to get even worse.
12. You are organising and participating in a screening of
the documentary The Librarians
at the city film house, followed
by a discussion on book censorship in the US. Why is this discussion
important, and what do you hope to achieve with the event?
NF: I would like to use this opportunity to emphasise the
importance of libraries and free access to information. My personal aim
is to raise awareness of this issue. I want my colleagues and friends to
see what is happening, and the documentary The Librarians
by Kim A.
Snyder shows this in a really compelling way.
I have previously watched this documentary. Afterwards, I felt a
mixture of powerlessness and anger, but also a desire to take action. I
am not the only one who felt this way. Marjolein just told me that
becoming active is also the topic of the manifesto Doe Iets
,
published last year by ProBiblio. It’s about activism in libraries. When
I think about what I can do, a lot of activities come to mind. You could
think of supporting special libraries and archives like The Black
Archives
in the Netherlands or the Transgender Archives
in
Canada. But the easiest and most obvious one would be reading banned
books.
MH: For me, it’s important to show people that what’s happening in America isn’t just a distant problem. They’re ahead of us, but we’re not far behind. I want to make people aware of this. At the same time, I want to inspire people to take action. We’re part of this ourselves and can take action ourselves. If we don’t, we too run the risk of slipping down that path. The arts, including books, are the first to suffer. We must take this warning very seriously.
Norma Fötsch is a librarian at Radboud University in Nijmegen, the
Netherlands. In her spare time, she is working on her PhD thesis. Access
to information is a central theme in her work and research. She is also
active in a network for queer librarians.
https://orcid.org/0009-0009-7009-5520
Marjolein Hordijk is program director of the Vrijheidscolleges
Foundation, director of the Novio Magica Fantasy Book- and Film
Festival, and a freelancer. She previously worked as a librarian at the
Gelderland Zuid Public Library in the Netherlands. She now remains
connected to the library world through her freelance work.
https://truebeliever-events.nl/
Ivana Smudja is a film director based in Nijmegen, the Netherlands.
She graduated in 2009 with a degree in film direction from the European
Institute of Design in Milan. Since 2012, she has worked in the
commercial film industry, first as an assistant director and later as a
director. During her formative years, she also worked at Teatro Piccolo
di Milano and Vice Italy, where she developed a documentary-style
approach, blending it with her distinctive artistic vision. Today, Ivana
focuses on socio-historical documentaries that explore topical issues
such as freedom and democracy.
https://www.ivanczyew.com/